Ancient Legionary & Ghost

[SpritHunter]

While the Legionary has Rocket which drains HP from the ship and the Stundome too.
Rocket Aggrobomb Resurrect Stundome
Loots not as broken as Ghost to me; two offensives with a debuff and a support item.
It is a combination of 3 classes so that might be its overkill, and combo of just 2 would be enough.


fiddling with established content is always risky.

Ghost could just get its speed buffed and that would make it alright I guess.
Aggrobomb has a very long cooldown and it doesn't bring enemy aggro onto you like it used it.
To use materializer properly you need either a protector or a lot of HP, so you don't die while materializing someone.
Rocket can miss and deal 0 damage to npcs.

Myst has more HP, a protector and a scrambler...

 

[KingSub]

Well at least in case of the Ghost I know why it is so shitty^^ That thing just doesn't know what it wants to be: Perforator(I really hit you) Aimscrambler(argghh don't hit me) Repairfield(i help everyone) Speedbuff(moar boosters!).
What shall you do with a perforator at a ship that just has no other offensive capabilities. To me just a stupid combination of items. what would you do with this even if it had more HP....

While the Legionary has Rocket which drains HP from the ship and the Stundome too.
Rocket Aggrobomb Resurrect Stundome
Loots not as broken as Ghost to me; two offensives with a debuff and a support item.
It is a combination of 3 classes so that might be its overkill, and combo of just 2 would be enough.


fiddling with established content is always risky.

Damn he just criticized his own game/work love that. Everything should stay as it is. But anyway is there not a small chance for a future with new ancient classes?

 

[alewx]

Damn he just criticized his own game/work love that. Everything should stay as it is. But anyway is there not a small chance for a future with new ancient classes?

Beeing critical is nothing bad in itself^^
Another ancient is kind of a niche product as its use is fairly limited, parsecs provide more use over multiple systems.

Aggrobomb provides as always the double of its damage as aggro, but other items are quite quickly ramping up to that amount as well.

 

[Vesperion]

Well i assume another reason why some combos for the ships not seem logical is that Siri is the system were hybrids were introduced so that weird combos could have been expected.

However Legi has the weirdest of them all imo as even a Puni who is all about raw power with Sniper; Thermo and Rockets with no aim comp) can balance the flaws out simply by having a Speed Boost so that a missed rocket is not as bad as with Legi who has the full CD on the items.

Basically the Legi is a strange hybrid trying to be a damage unit that can mat others but in return may drag aggro to itself without any proper mean of defence due of neiter a Shield; Prot or Scram so it has to hope to not get aggro or mat quick enough while sit like a duck and use RD during the mat time.

Ghost is more the supportive type with some defence due of Scram with Perfo who is situational as again not many units in Siri use a shield/perfo + it is taken down in a few shots and an RField what can be usefull in a fight with AoE attacks and Speed balances it out a bit again to have scram and RD rdy again in a short time.

 

[KingSub]

Beeing critical is nothing bad in itself^^
Another ancient is kind of a niche product as its use is fairly limited, parsecs provide more use over multiple systems.

Aggrobomb provides as always the double of its damage as aggro, but other items are quite quickly ramping up to that amount as well.

okay okay... we know how beneficial or how crappy the ancient ships can be, but the ne0n ships especially bobcat, humpback, panther etc. are much worse. the ship component are a total mess. e.g attack buff turret. attack droide. taunt.

you are sympathetic, but we know that so far. if you had read my entries here more closely, you would know what i am getting at. it would be great if we get new ancient ships in the near future (see Calon). expand the existing ancient ships for tau ceti and oort system(except mizar,sol & draconis). i give you an e.g
ancient ship: armor r70
ancient ship: armor r76
ancient ship: armor r82 (methanoid armor) lets add two more armors to those ship
ancient ship: armor r88 sirius armor (when 6th ring will be decided for new techs)
ancient ship: armor r91 (ancient armor)
ancient ship: armor r99 (adv. ancient armor)

if someday will be decided for a 6th ring with new lower ancient techs, i'll give a e.g too, so that you can understand what i mean - mizar ancient lightning chain- sol ancient rapid magnet trap.

my caliculation for the price would look like this:

thermograde armor: 135.760 cry
deluvian armor: 143.905 cry
methanoid armor: 171.058 cry
sirius armor: 271.520 cry (6th ring)
ancient armor: 458.132 cry (tau ceti system)
adv. ancient armor: 773.004 cry (oort system)

:total cost 1.681.859 cry


for the parsec class it would like something like this:

mizar armor: 0 cry
sol armor: 337.000 cry
adv. sol armor: 357.961 cry
draconis armor: 425.520 cry
sirius armor: 526.812 cry
ancient armor: 769.956 cry - 1,14% more expensive
tau ceti armor: 864.512 cry - 1,14% more expensive
adv. tau ceti armor: 1.100.902 cry - 1,27% more expensive

:with advanced ancient armor 5.058.063 cry

mizar armor: 0 cry
sol armor: 317.266 cry
adv. sol armor: 337.000 cry
draconis armor: 357.961 cry
sirius armor: 425.520 cry
ancient armor: 526.812 cry
adv. ancient armor: 675.400 cry
tau ceti armor: 769.956 cry
adv. tau ceti armor: 864.512 cry

fixed armor price 4.274.427 cry
normal armor price without adv. ancient armor 4.288.107 cryo

that was too much math and too much writing. my point is that this game still has enough hope and fuel in the tank and you can revive and expand existing ships. it gets extremely boring over time to only see new rdx stuff.

there may be some calculation errors, i just got home from work

 

[alewx]

Nice calculations, but i got formulas covering that

But still have the question, it is pretty common and long established that the ships are system based with the exception of the parsecs, so why do you want to extend ancient(sirius) ships into tauceti, why not the draconis ships up to there? or even sol ships? why particular these?

 

[Vesperion]

Nice calculations, but i got formulas covering that

But still have the question, it is pretty common and long established that the ships are system based with the exception of the parsecs, so why do you want to extend ancient(sirius) ships into tauceti, why not the draconis ships up to there? or even sol ships? why particular these?

It s now just a guess by me but eventually the reason of this idea is a bit related to the transition from Draconis to Sirius were at a later point the ancient Armor for Drac ships was implemented in order to be on par with the Parsec ships as they were at the start of Siri the superior ships due of the slight armor bonus they had and so were the new "meta" until clans were able to reach R5 and found a Siri ship.

So maybe this is why it should be reflected for Siri ships to TC as well as in some way TC is the system or part of the Ancients were the ships did come from in the 1st place.

Aside from that i think tha this discussion is starting to move towards the offtopic anyways as from my understanding it started with the idea of rebalancing Legi and Ghost due of the items and not to raise Siri ships to TC levels what imo makes no sense anyways as otherwise we could go even crazier and say that you could upgrade a Vega ship all the way up to TC4 with the extra challenge of having 2 items less available cus why not...

 

[STAIN]

So after all of this can we expect ghost buff?

 

[alewx]

Aside from that i think tha this discussion is starting to move towards the offtopic anyways as from my understanding it started with the idea of rebalancing Legi and Ghost due of the items and not to raise Siri ships to TC levels what imo makes no sense anyways as otherwise we could go even crazier and say that you could upgrade a Vega ship all the way up to TC4 with the extra challenge of having 2 items less available cus why not...

That is exactly my point. why only these and not all the ships basicly in the game.
The the appropriate thing is, replace what item with what; so that players do not go crazy and things not totally break.

 

[Vesperion]

That is exactly my point. why only these and not all the ships basicly in the game.
The the appropriate thing is, replace what item with what; so that players do not go crazy and things not totally break.

If i would go with the 1st post from @SpritHunter for Legi it would need the most drastic item change i guess due of the statment that it has low HP without proper means of defending with the current setup

As an ship with less/low HP makes no sense to have damaging items i would remove rocket and Bomb entirely and maybe even replace the dome with a more survivability focused item while keeping the mat in it. The config could then look like this eventually

Basically some sort of Hator so that Legi has shield and Perfo and can so also switch between stay shielded to stay alive longer while having a R-Turr to support the group and have the mat still available in case someone did pod cus Prot was not rdy or is already in use.

For Ghost i have no real idea tbh what could be changed considering the config were a speed balances already flaws out to some degree so that only scram would be the issue and either be replaced by shield or Protector.

 

[alewx]

Thanks @Vesperion for the suggestion, but I hope for some specific suggestion that @SpritHunter comes up with that would be an improvement to his specifications.

 

[SpritHunter]

Thanks @Vesperion for the suggestion, but I hope for some specific suggestion that @SpritHunter comes up with that would be an improvement to his specifications.

The specific suggestion would be decide what you want the Legionary to be. This goes for all ships, as while I am sure the Ancient ships were designed a long time ago, the Neon ones weren't and most don't see much use - not because they got bad stats but because the item combinations are just not very good or not usable in any situations to great efficiency.

In my opinion, either give it a buff to armor (+15%~ ) and keep it the way it is, or replace:
Ex:
Aggrobomb -> Aim PC ( to synergize with Rockets )
Dome -> Protector ( to keep yourself alive and support others )

Its a DPS ship that is more consistent that Punisher, with less armor, a bit more consistent rockets and some support.

Also, please fix taunt and aggrobomb. If you want to make taunt usefull in PvP here's a rework suggestion:
-> Marks a target with the same effect, if marked target shoots anyone else they deal 15% less damage. Lasts longer than cloud and comes back faster. Keeps combat mode on for both taunter and taunted targets.

 

[alewx]

The specific suggestion would be decide what you want the Legionary to be. This goes for all ships, as while I am sure the Ancient ships were designed a long time ago, the Neon ones weren't and most don't see much use - not because they got bad stats but because the item combinations are just not very good or not usable in any situations to great efficiency.

In my opinion, either give it a buff to armor (+15%~ ) and keep it the way it is, or replace:
Ex:
Aggrobomb -> Aim PC ( to synergize with Rockets )
Dome -> Protector ( to keep yourself alive and support others )

Its a DPS ship that is more consistent that Punisher, with less armor, a bit more consistent rockets and some support.

Also, please fix taunt and aggrobomb. If you want to make taunt usefull in PvP here's a rework suggestion:
-> Marks a target with the same effect, if marked target shoots anyone else they deal 15% less damage. Lasts longer than cloud and comes back faster. Keeps combat mode on for both taunter and taunted targets.

I do not modifiy the HP by hand, as I annoyed testers GMs and CMs alreay long and broad about it^^
With the suggested items, the legionary would instantly get into the range of the myst, by just tiny % differences at speed and HP.

And Ghost?

These ships were created long before i joined Splitscreen so, I do not know what thes are designed to be. But they are done to mix things up from the regular classes.

 

[STAIN]

Or simpler solution for taunt ... make the taunted enemy all shots and skills that require targeting redirect to the user for 2 or 3 sec every 40 sec (cooldown) for example...

Suggestion for legionary as the name suggests should be stable frontliner that cannot be broken.. give rep turret perfo rocket and mat so it can heal itself a bit on the frontline penetrate defenses and also revive if needed ... its not overbalanced and its not broken...

Suggestion for ghost well it should as the name suggest be based on evasion so aim scrambler and speed and field should stay to support allies but instead of attack power item like perfo give it weaker stun (stundome) or even beacon because its more useful that anything attack based.

 

[SpritHunter]

I do not modifiy the HP by hand, as I annoyed testers GMs and CMs alreay long and broad about it^^
With the suggested items, the legionary would instantly get into the range of the myst, by just tiny % differences at speed and HP.

I understand you do not modify the HP by hand. Fair enough. However in my mind when you speak about this system of items determining HP of ships, why does a Protector item give more HP than an Aggrobomb? One item can be used on friendlies, has much faster cooldown and adds to total HP while the other does damage around you which can be outranged, has a very long cooldown and scrambler counters it. Maybe the Aggrobomb item should have its values tweaked then instead to grant more HP on the ships that have it - I also cannot really recall ANY ship that has aggrobomb as being widely used ( Locust, Black Granite, VQ, Dominator ), which means the item is underpowered.

 

[HGus]

why does a Protector item give more HP than an Aggrobomb?

Why do you think that Protector gives more HP than Aggrobomb?

Maybe the Aggrobomb item should have its values tweaked then instead to grant more HP on the ships that have it

Why do you think Aggrobomb grants more HP on the ships that have it?

I also cannot really recall ANY ship that has aggrobomb as being widely used ( Locust, Black Granite, VQ, Dominator ), which means the item is underpowered.

If actually a ship is not widely used that doesn't mean that some item is underpowered.

 

[SpritHunter]

Why do you think that Protector gives more HP than Aggrobomb?



Why do you think Aggrobomb grants more HP on the ships that have it?



If actually a ship is not widely used that doesn't mean that some item is underpowered.

I don't even know, at this point I've grown very tired of responding the same stuff again, but for one more time.
Myst has 20% more HP than Legionary.
Items determine HP of ships as mentioned above. Lets compare these items.

Both ships have dome so no difference here.
One ship has rockets the other has aim scrambler.
One ship has aggrobomb the other orbital strike.
One ship has materializer the other protector.

So basically scrambler gives more HP than rockets OR aggrobomb than orbital strike OR protector than materializer.
Regardless how you compare these pairs of 2, the problem I am stating is the fact that the ship with a protector and scrambler which are defensive and supportive items has more HP than a materializer and bomb ship. Why?
Its like saying the ship with most defenses should get even more while the one with some offense, should have none.
Ironically, the aggrobomb's cooldown and range make it worse than orbital strike in most situations, so it fails there too.
And yes, if a ship is not widely used, it means its either underpowered or very niche. Otherwise people would use it. If you are using a tank in any system higher than vega for PvP, you are probably trolling and could do much more work in a shock lmao.

 

[Razor2278]

save when pitchstone was added, there was also a cry about why deflection droid beats hp and doesn't beat the protector, it's the same story if deflection droid did that, it would be killed then the ship so it works both ways, I don't have the latest rdx, I didn't get it, I didn't have time for the game but it's the same cry

 

[alewx]

The HP of the items is defined by a factor which is based on the HP of the base ship classes that use them, that then translates into the HP for all other ships that use them relative to the HP of the systems they are based on.

 

[HGus]

Myst has 20% more HP than Legionary.
Items determine HP of ships as mentioned above. Lets compare these items.

Both ships have dome so no difference here.
One ship has rockets the other has aim scrambler.
One ship has aggrobomb the other orbital strike.
One ship has materializer the other protector.

ship with a protector and scrambler which are defensive and supportive items has more HP than a materializer and bomb ship. Why?

The comparation is not slot by slot, but class by class. Domes of course are out of question and from shock class. I also agree that mat compares the same to prot because both are supportive items from engineer class. Aim scrambler match aggrobomb, and are defensive items from tank class. The differences are in rockets (storm class) and orbital strike (sniper class). AFAIK a storm has more HP than a sniper, so this breaks the rule stated by @alewx a few posts below. I think that items have some weight inside each class, materializer is more expensive than protector, aggrobomb more expensive than scrambler, OS more than rockets. Notice the prices,: (rockets = protector) < (aim scrambler) < (aggrobomb = orbital = materializer). That makes a Myst cheaper than a Legio and adds to the confusion.

Its like saying the ship with most defenses should get even more while the one with some offense, should have none.

That is what happens with tank vs DPS in almost every game. Nothing new there.

And yes, if a ship is not widely used, it means its either underpowered or very niche. Otherwise people would use it

I agree it is niche, but not underpowered. And you spoke about items, not ships, in your original post.

If you are using a tank in any system higher than vega for PvP, you are probably trolling and could do much more work in a shock lmao.

I had defeated many shocks using tanks. That was the original scissors-paper-stone mechanics in game before snipers were intorduced.