Aggrobomb/Ancient Legionary

[Fission]

The aggro of tanks surely might need a rebalance, but the fact that healers have a big aggro (should be lower than tanks) its completely logical and many games has it, its the holy trinity of aggro that is seen in most of the games. In this case, the fact that healers have more aggro than DPS is logical, the only issue that could happen here right now is that tanks aren't managing to get enough aggro, which can be easily reworked.

I see many healers in-game honestly, normally its only needed to play it safely.

Not all ships can be OP in all aspects on the game, PvP, PvE, missions, grinding, etc. Each ship must have their spot, some are a bit behind and some a bit ahead, but that's matter of a bit of rebalancing.

The granite was mostly flown because it was OP, as it was able to solo sirius bosses. In 90% scenarios tanks were actually used as solo ships, not as tank ships, there is a big difference between one and the other.

Right now Hunter is one of the top tier meta ships on PvP, and it might be behind others on PvE like the thunderbird, but that's because as i said, not all ships can be super good at everything, there are some that are 4x4, that can do most jobs quite good, but without shining in any, those ships could be ones as the Emperor, Veiled Quartz, Myst, Hawkmoth, etc. Basically ships that have a combination of items that make them useful for more aspects of the game. But in many cases, they aren't the shining ship in any of those, just an overall good ship for most tasks.

I would prefer if the critics can keep being constructive, there is no need to critize as if "its a disaster" and such.

Thank you

 

[Vesperion]

[...]why should someone use the hunter in siri if there is the punisher with much more firepower and alot cheaper than the parsec Hunter. Both of the ships uses speed item.[...]

Call me crazy but i would and this for 2 simple reasons.
1st the Rocket of the Puni can miss so that it is more related to RNG and 2nd once the Thermo is out it can not be used for quite some time (even with Speed). So overall the Hunter is still the better choice of those 2 due it has an constand damage output and can increase it´s damage and from the times it´s nearly the same as the Thermo so that all in all both ships break down to the Blaster and SB.

What brings it me if i have an additional attack item that can miss and in return "waste" one cylce of using the Blaster/SB instead?

From my experience the hunter is a nice ship to fly and i even prefer it over the T-Bird even when it has way more damage potential but it can create the risk of "unwanted" attention if a LC goes crazy and jumps to a unit that may just have entered the last pixel of range and then jump to some more units... sure T-Bird is a ship that needs to be used correctly for most effectiveness but it is like with all other things in the end the pilot itself can make a ship "good" or "bad" when flying it.

[...]the mechanics and aggro system is a disaster. the one who gives target repair or repair field is immediately targeted and works better than a taunt or beacon.everyone who uses repair skills is immediately target number 1. It wasn't before.[...]

Again... "Effort System" is to blame what was impleneted ironically to help Engi Pilots to gain some more XP due the old system more focused around the dmg dealt where the DPS ships clearly had the lead in terms of XP gain what in the end is pointless cus sooner or later you will hit the required level + in theory more killed units until the next level = more potential Cry

[...]its the holy trinity of aggro that is seen in most of the games. In this case, the fact that healers have more aggro than DPS is logical, the only issue that could happen here right now is that tanks aren't managing to get enough aggro,[...]

Sry Fission... but no...
The holy trinity of the classes is that Tanks generate and hold the Aggro so that the DPS and Healers not go down just cus the Enemy is looking at them... The Old Aggro system did what it should and that was if an Aggro Beacon was droped, a Taunt or Aggro Bomb was used the aggro was "bound" until the effect ended or the unit was killed. If i remember correctly it had something to do with the "initial damage" or so that created this effect in the game.

Now you can drop a beacon or use taunt/bomb all you want send at least an dps or engi into the battle and the aggro will switch within seconds so that the "tank items" are obsolete atm.

[...]the only issue that could happen here right now is that tanks aren't managing to get enough aggro, which can be easily reworked.[...]

Taunts Rework
Expand this idea to Beacons and Bomb and you should be golden to make those items "interesting" to use again.

 

[Fission]

The holy trinity of the classes is that Tanks generate and hold the Aggro so that the DPS and Healers not go down just cus the Enemy is looking at them... The Old Aggro system did what it should and that was if an Aggro Beacon was droped, a Taunt or Aggro Bomb was used the aggro was "bound" until the effect ended or the unit was killed. If i remember correctly it had something to do with the "initial damage" or so that created this effect in the game.

Hello vesperion,

When i ment the holy trinity in games, i didn't meant on PG itself, but what can be found on most MMO's, and PG also tried to do, its a basic concept:
Tanks get the aggro and cover the enemies, if tanks dont pull the aggro correctly, the healers will always get focused, since their aggro generation is above DPS, if the healers had less aggro generation than DPS, u would never need tanks, since u could just use DPS and the healers would heal those DPS, thats what happened on PG for long time, where tanks weren't needed since healers weren't creating aggro. An attempt to fix this was done, increasing the aggro of the healers so in most cases, u would get the aggro over the DPS, but the tanks didn't recieved any aggro buff, which lead to the actual state.

So yes, of course items like aggrobomb, taunt, or aggrobeacon need a rework, but not pure damage as for the aggrobombs, this item wasn't purely made for that.

 

[Vesperion]

PG also tried to do, its a basic concept:

PG not just tried to PG had such a system that defined the classes and how aggro was handled in the early stages of the game aggro management was even a thing of the mechanics so that it made sense to have the different ship types (i was mainly the healer in those times).

As i said if you droped during a battle a Beacon, triggered the bomb or the taunt the AI did switch nearly instandly to the Beacon, Taunt or Bomb user and attacked them for quite a while before they even considered to attack any other Pilot again what mostly only happened when the Beacon was destroyed or the Taunt/Bomb user was poded (for PvP the use of Beacon, Taunt and Bomb) had no effect aside from prevent the taunted Pilot to go into orb as long as the taunt is active.

This whole system was messed up when SSG implemented the effort system that made tank ships from one moment to another useless due aggro is now based around the DPS or the Repair power. If you throw now a Beacon into a wild Mantis mob that is mad with the Engi they not even conisder looking at the Beacon for a second. A tank ship that is under heavy fire? Throw a RT and a Prot and bam you are the new main target... using a Bomb or Taunt? Useless due the aggro does not switch anymore AND if we would now go back to the other discussion about Item description the Bomb, Taunt and Beacon are descriped as Aggro holders but their aggro holding is hilarious so that using them more aggros the pilot then the hit unit.

thats what happened on PG for long time, where tanks weren't needed since healers weren't creating aggro.

Well then you have not my experience where for Harv farming or even roaming around having a Tank was always a great thing and our sq mostly did fly in the combo of 1 Tank, 2 Storms 1 Engi and 1 Stunner and for some reason the engi was required to keep the tank alive cus it did get all the attention while the storms dealt the damage and the stunner provided the stuns/speeds and sometimes even the beacon if needed.

Aside from my experience seeing a Pilot actually flying a tank was not that rare in compare to nowadays where basicly any ship that has a beacon/taunt installed is directly "marked as a bad" ship due it has basicly "just 7 of 8 items" it can use lol.

An attempt to fix this was done, increasing the aggro of the healers so in most cases

Again... the attempt here was to give the Engi Pilots an little extra so that they could gain some more XP when they did fly in sq cus the old system was fixed around dealt damage to the unit how much XP you received and Engi Pilots had clearly the lowest damage "for a reason". So the attempt was not fixing anything around the aggro to my knowledge and was more focused around a single class to help them to "level up a bit faster"

So yes, of course items like aggrobomb, taunt, or aggrobeacon need a rework, but not pure damage as for the aggrobombs, this item wasn't purely made for that.

I clearly know that Bombs never had the focus around damage but their main effect is simply not there to call them actually "Aggro Bomb" what in reverse brings the pilots to the point to make the bomb to an damage focused item that either deals more damage for the CD or gets the CD around Mine/OS to make it more viable.

 

[KingSub]

PG not just tried to PG had such a system that defined the classes and how aggro was handled in the early stages of the game aggro management was even a thing of the mechanics so that it made sense to have the different ship types (i was mainly the healer in those times).

As i said if you droped during a battle a Beacon, triggered the bomb or the taunt the AI did switch nearly instandly to the Beacon, Taunt or Bomb user and attacked them for quite a while before they even considered to attack any other Pilot again what mostly only happened when the Beacon was destroyed or the Taunt/Bomb user was poded (for PvP the use of Beacon, Taunt and Bomb) had no effect aside from prevent the taunted Pilot to go into orb as long as the taunt is active.

This whole system was messed up when SSG implemented the effort system that made tank ships from one moment to another useless due aggro is now based around the DPS or the Repair power. If you throw now a Beacon into a wild Mantis mob that is mad with the Engi they not even conisder looking at the Beacon for a second. A tank ship that is under heavy fire? Throw a RT and a Prot and bam you are the new main target... using a Bomb or Taunt? Useless due the aggro does not switch anymore AND if we would now go back to the other discussion about Item description the Bomb, Taunt and Beacon are descriped as Aggro holders but their aggro holding is hilarious so that using them more aggros the pilot then the hit unit.


Well then you have not my experience where for Harv farming or even roaming around having a Tank was always a great thing and our sq mostly did fly in the combo of 1 Tank, 2 Storms 1 Engi and 1 Stunner and for some reason the engi was required to keep the tank alive cus it did get all the attention while the storms dealt the damage and the stunner provided the stuns/speeds and sometimes even the beacon if needed.

Aside from my experience seeing a Pilot actually flying a tank was not that rare in compare to nowadays where basicly any ship that has a beacon/taunt installed is directly "marked as a bad" ship due it has basicly "just 7 of 8 items" it can use lol.


Again... the attempt here was to give the Engi Pilots an little extra so that they could gain some more XP when they did fly in sq cus the old system was fixed around dealt damage to the unit how much XP you received and Engi Pilots had clearly the lowest damage "for a reason". So the attempt was not fixing anything around the aggro to my knowledge and was more focused around a single class to help them to "level up a bit faster"



I clearly know that Bombs never had the focus around damage but their main effect is simply not there to call them actually "Aggro Bomb" what in reverse brings the pilots to the point to make the bomb to an damage focused item that either deals more damage for the CD or gets the CD around Mine/OS to make it more viable.

you said everything that needs to be said. these are all the points that need improvement.

 

[KingSub]

the tank is fighting on the front line, he has to endure the incoming damage. the storms come behind with rockets and thermoblast and perforators. the healer tries to heal and support - behind the storms. the stunner paralyzes/stuns and supports - close to the healer ships. the snipers work from behind to the front with the sniper blaster and drop orbis. The defenders are tactical units both offensive and defensive and block a planet where there are many enemies to support the other ships.


the ships-mechanic must be matched in this way as realistic and playable and using ships full potential. Aggro system is a big problem here. Not in pvp not in conquest only in pve.

 

[SpritHunter]

I think the purpose of the OP was to clarify and raise awareness as to ship that do not even properly fit a role.
I am not saying the Ancient ships should be stronger than Parsecs/TC, but that they should be balanced for their own tier of ships.
Punisher: Best damage among them.
Raven: Best single target supporter
Raider/Ghost: AoE supporters with survivability over time or a bit of dmg.
Legionary: Damage is not good, it isn't fast, it has no armour, it isn't fast.
My point was you can't change its items, at least give it decent armour?
Also VQ is excelent against Para/CC meta where people stack stacked.

 

[HGus]

Hello. Sorry for the delay, but that ugly snow effect in holidays rendered almost impossible to browse the forum for me, cause it made my CPU skyrocketed for every single page.

A note about that armor list, that you can find currently in a link at HH's in the remarks frame. Ancient R82 and Tau Ceti R91 ships are not comparable in between. A putted them together in the list but only as reference against Proto/RDXs that can be used in Sirius and Tau Ceti with same armor level. So is not safe to ensure that Humpback R91 is weaker than Myst R82, but you can say that Hunter R82 is weaker than Myst and Hunter R91 is stronger than Humpback.
Then only compare Ancient R82 ships against Proto/RDX R82, and Tau Ceti R91 against Proto/RDX R91.

How was built the list?
First, Parsec storm was tested with R43 (base Mizar), R82 (Ancient) and R91 (Tau Ceti) armors, for reference.
All other Proto/RDX ships were tested with R43 armor. Upgrading to better armor doesn't change their relative strength against Parsec.
Ancient R82 ships were tested relative to Parsec R82, Tau Ceti R91 to Parsec R91.

Tests were done using RDs of different power, all those RD effects were compared with similar tests on Parsec.
Check the "Data for nerds" section in the spreadsheet for more detail.

Tyvm. Working on an update based on Jan, 19th update.

 

[HGus]

If you want a relative strength list for Ancient R82 vs. Tau Ceti R83 ships, test the effect of Kenyte RD on Myst R82 and any Tau Ceti R83, then build the rest of Tau Ceti R83 ships using that one as reference, knowing their relative strength at level 91. That will surely raise the status of Tau Ceti ships vs Ancient ships, but Proto/RDX indexes should remain as R82 ships to make the list reliable.

 

[Fra_592]

If you want a relative strength list for Ancient R82 vs. Tau Ceti R83 ships, test the effect of Kenyte RD on Myst R82 and any Tau Ceti R83, then build the rest of Tau Ceti R83 ships using that one as reference, knowing their relative strength at level 91. That will surely raise the status of Tau Ceti ships vs Ancient ships, but Proto/RDX indexes should remain as R82 ships to make the list reliable.

I did exactly that some time ago, with sirius long RD, and iirc the uncareened humpback was more like a R82 emperor (aka ~5% above myst), and the thunderbird was pretty much a R82 granit - the hawkmoth being at the time where TC2 wasn't released yet the ship with the most hp. I'll try to dig my spreadsheet's history to find it back.
Edit: this is what i had when TC1 got released, at that time tested with dolomyte repair droid - forget the blue/tr/rare ships, the sheet was WIP and they were leftovers from mizar/vega tests

Edit2: the ordering is broken in the snapshots, i'll probably redo it later today xd

 

[HGus]

That makes sense. All TC ships stronger than Sirius ships at entry level.

 

[HGus]

I did exactly that some time ago, with sirius long RD, and iirc the uncareened humpback was more like a R82 emperor (aka ~5% above myst), and the thunderbird was pretty much a R82 granit - the hawkmoth being at the time where TC2 wasn't released yet the ship with the most hp. I'll try to dig my spreadsheet's history to find it back.
Edit: this is what i had when TC1 got released, at that time tested with dolomyte repair droid - forget the blue/tr/rare ships, the sheet was WIP and they were leftovers from mizar/vega tests

Edit2: the ordering is broken in the snapshots, i'll probably redo it later today xd

I built a new table using your data as reference.

Sorry, Ghost left out of screenshot, but it is just below Legionary with an index 73,810

 

[HGus]

I tested all R85 ne0n ships in PTR using Kenyte RD vs Parsec R82. This is the updated table:
As you can see, R85 Humpback is stronger than R82 Myst and the other two that you can find on Venar are pretty stronger than Parsec. Wolfhound close to Mutilator and Thunderbird over Black Granite. Other Tau Ceti ships you can get them in Earth (in unrest) and Calon, so it makes sense their entry hull is yet stronger.

 

[HGus]

Why is Bobcat so weak?

 

[dontbelive]

Hi all, so yesterday we tested the strong aggrobomb and strong orbital strike with my brother @KingSub. (with sirius ships)

We thought maybe the quartz or the locust could be an opponent to chromian but the aggrobomb is way to weak and long cooldown time.

Strong aggrobomb to the paragneiss deals only 24-28% (several times tested)
And the OS deals 32-48%.

Also the range is too small it's annoying if you miss.

It must be optimised for sure.

Only the mizar x storm nearly defeated the mizar chromian. But only thanks to the strong items.
Otherwise no chance..

Change the aggrobomb @Highway

 

[KingSub]

Hi all, so yesterday we tested the strong aggrobomb and strong orbital strike with my brother @KingSub. (with sirius ships)

We thought maybe the quartz or the locust could be an opponent to chromian but the aggrobomb is way to weak and long cooldown time.

Strong aggrobomb to the paragneiss deals only 24-28% (several times tested)
And the OS deals 32-48%.

Also the range is too small it's annoying if you miss.

It must be optimised for sure.

Only the mizar x storm nearly defeated the mizar chromian. But only thanks to the strong items.
Otherwise no chance..

Change the aggrobomb @Highway

jep... tested on paragneiss

Sirius strong orbitalstrike min damage 24% max damage with crit 50%

Sirius strong aggrobomb min damage 26% max damage 32% no critical damages after multiple times testing. crit damage should be around ~55-65%

Mizar PvP

Scorpion Hybrid Mizar Strong Techs has no chance against Chromian Corundum Ancient Techs.

Mizar X Storm with Strong Techs had a better Chance, but did loose often.

Mizar Dominator also no chance.

The main resason here is not the Aggrobomb or Orbs. It is the ship himself.

@Highway this is for your to understand this situation

Emperor has Perf, Thermoblast, Sniperblaster and Protector

Chromian has Protector, Trap, Orb and Speed

but the Chromian has around ~20-25% more Armor. Why is that so? The Protector and Orb is cooled down fast enough to make almost every ship a looser. Hunter, Lava Paragneiss have a chance. Classic stunner ships do not have a chance.

If you release ships with this kinda armors and items variations, explain US players why did u take armors from the emperor?

Aggrobomb is way to weak. Orbitalstrike is way to strong. Chromian has to much endurance thanks to the Speed and Trap.

Don't forget the existing Ships when you release newer ones.


Buff down the Chromian to the same level as the Emperor exact same Armor.

Before the Kodiak was fully used by players it had the same armor as the Parsec Storm, now it has way more? Debuffing/Buffing ships are ok, but don't forget the existing ones. Quartz, Emperor Punisher was also a killer in his prime time now it is a punching bag.

RDX needs rebalance

Blazing Lava is pretty good, but it doesnt have to overpower the Dominator.

Black Slate has quite good armor, but in harder combat his armor seems to be not enough. But this is fair. This ship is perfect.

Look at the Chromian, he has the most Endurance, a little less Armor than Paragneiss.

Paragneiss is very slow, his armor is also not the best. He should have up to 10% flight speed. thats it.


The players use In CQs Chromian if 5 of the gets the other 5 it is over. Strong Ancient Techs are not helping, theyre just not.

We use classic Prototype ships and classic RDX ships in CQs and PvPs the are not able to kill Squads with Chromians.

@Highway you decided to weaken the Magnet Trap. Now decide to rebalance and match the armor of the Chromian in the same level as the Quartz Obsi or Emperor uses. Or just bring back our Emperor and rework aggrobomb again.

 

[-BoH-]

Some ships in the game rely on the aggrobomb to deal their damage effectively ( VQ, Legionary, Dominator to name a few).
Problem is the aggrobombs cooldown is too long, while its damage is not amazing, and its range is also - small.
All the ancient ships are well balanced at the moment imo, but the Legionary.
Raven, Raider and Ghost are good support ships with utility. Punisher has damage. Myst is the all rounder ( which actually is the best at anything but support and raw damage lol).
What is the Legionary supposed to do? It has the worst armour, its speed is not great, and the damage is only given by its rockets ( if they hit) and a bomb which has an insanely long cd.
An orbital strike does what a bomb does but with more dmg and a much shorter cooldown.
My suggestion:
- reduce bomb cooldown by 25% OR increase its dmg so it does 25% more dmg than the corresponding OS. ( Sirius ancient os < - > sirius ancient aggrobomb)
-increase bomb range to what it was before. Its supposed to be a *bomb* right?
(or just more than os by 20%)
- Increase armour of Ancient Legionary by 20%. At the moment its literally the worst armour among all ancient ships - due to that it can't even use the aggrobomb to draw aggro to itself well.

But that's the thing. Aggrobombs aren't actually meant directly for damage. They take aggro on the enemies and piss them off. Legionary also has decent armor and so do most ships that have it. It's meant to be a support type ship.

 

[dontbelive]

But that's the thing. Aggrobombs aren't actually meant directly for damage. They take aggro on the enemies and piss them off. Legionary also has decent armor and so do most ships that have it. It's meant to be a support type ship.

Nah but why can the sniper take back the aggro in no time

Some ships can get the aggro back easily, so sggrobomb is useless at this point, also taunt is very useless. Sniper, thunderbird and other ships can steal back the aggro. Even Healer do more aggro than tank

 

[-BoH-]

Nah but why can the sniper take back the aggro in no time

Some ships can get the aggro back easily, so sggrobomb is useless at this point, also taunt is very useless. Sniper, thunderbird and other ships can steal back the aggro. Even Healer do more aggro than tank

Then in that case there probably needs adjusting in the aggrobomb and taunt if it having that issue.

 

[KingSub]

But that's the thing. Aggrobombs aren't actually meant directly for damage. They take aggro on the enemies and piss them off. Legionary also has decent armor and so do most ships that have it. It's meant to be a support type ship.

thats true, aggrobombs still can take aggro but not for long e.g healer activates repair field and aggrobomb takes aggro back. this works fine, but does it have to be so weak and have long cooldown? orbitalstrike is stronger and also can take aggro easily.

quantum leap had a huge cooldown time, now it is has cooldown around ~12sec. new stuff gets buffed but older stuff not.