Tau Ceti armor vs Advanced Tau Ceti armor

[SpritHunter]

Hi!
I'd like to ask or report the fact that the Tau Ceti Speed Actuator works based on armor and not on items.
This makes it very difficult for certain ships that rely on strong armor or high offense to survive. ( Ex: Black Slate, Thunderbird, RDX-08 etc )
Many players use something called Turbo "Ship name" which means they leave the tau ceti armor without upgrading to the advanced one so the speed works better, which makes the ship much stronger while others upgrade making their ship weaker in fact.
This also affect the speed of the ships greatly when using the afterburner, however that was in the past as well.
Is this behavior intended and if so, why? Its a very counter intuitive game design choice - you'd expect to pay more cryo to get a better ship, instead you get more armor and weaken your speed actuator which is also not mentioned in the game anywhere.
Remembering how the items used to work before ( when Speed Actuator would scale with installed Item levels ) I was expecting the Tau Ceti Gold Speed Actuator to give the bonus it gives on Tau Ceti armor to the Advanced Armor, however it gives a much lower one, as it now scales with armor.

 

[Sygeron]

Remembering how the items used to work before ( when Speed Actuator would scale with installed Item levels )

Armor also has its item level. Like you mentioned, it effects every other depending tech like AB, too. Why would Speed be an exception? Either you choose the safer way with more hp/armor and "normal" Speed or go with less hp/armor and indirectly boost your DPS (and cooldown in general), appears logical to me.
Same logic applies to pros/cons of "Storms vs. Tanks", I mean it's not surprising.

 

[HGus]

@Sygeron Afterburner logic is rational because you need more power to move a heavier hull. Speed actuator shouldn't be affected by armor because it is only related to the use of items.

 

[SpritHunter]

Armor also has its item level. Like you mentioned, it effects every other depending tech like AB, too. Why would Speed be an exception? Either you choose the safer way with more hp/armor and "normal" Speed or go with less hp/armor and indirectly boost your DPS (and cooldown in general), appears logical to me.
Same logic applies to pros/cons of "Storms vs. Tanks", I mean it's not surprising.

Its not really the safer way however. Turbo ships like the Rdx-08 CC are just flat out better without the armor and much worse with the armor thanks to the speed actuator bonus, as no only do dps items come back 50% quicker, but so do defensive items ( prot, rd, ab etc).
You end up spending 1mil cryo for what esentially is an armor that nerfs your speed actuator by 50% only to get a 30% increase in maximum hp.
Its very non linear game design and counter intuitive too, you pay more to get less out of your ship.
Its like what would you want? To have 25% more maximum HP but your items come back 20% faster OR to have your items come back 50% faster with no armor increase?
I dont know why this is funny as it just seems overlooked or badly designed, you can have a Punisher with TC golds with a sirius long speed using Thermograde armor and it literally blasts everything to oblivion.
Why not make it scale with item levels so it works as it did before, giving a 50%~ increase to item cooldowns on the best available armor?

 

[Vesperion]

The funny thing is that it always was so but thanks to TC3 the players were treated with "much better items" for a long time until TC4 arrived with the (current) endgame items that return back to the system that is in place all the time as in every system top armor always matched the top blue/gold/ancient level.

Mostly noticable is the effect even in Siri when we start to speak about variants and espacially the long speed. Basically the long speed could be so OP that you can have a perma speed as the CD is much quicker then the actuall runtime while in return increase your other items usability as well so that some ships can turn into machine guns if you not install the Siri armor at all with the risk of poding quicker of course and being more vulnurable to stuns.

Long story short TC3 had the issue that the item level was above the armor lvl already (lvl 95 item vs lvl 90 armor lvl) so that most items had a better effect already and with TC4 and the lvl 99 items and armor the items work now as intented again as they are equal to each other.

 

[GOTIL0N]

Personally, what you mention doesn't seem like a problem to me, yes, the chromian is more ''efficient'' with normal armor than with advanced armor, but that depends on what you are going to do and your personal taste when it comes to play, if you have boosters, a chromian without armor is quite profitable, but without boosters (like me) a chromian without armor is not very fun, everything in Erebos hits you like a drawer that doesn't close

 

[Sygeron]

@Sygeron Afterburner logic is rational because you need more power to move a heavier hull. Speed actuator shouldn't be affected by armor because it is only related to the use of items.

You have to put in more energy because of the bigger ship/armor to speed up processes is how I would interpret that.

Its not really the safer way however. [...] Have 25% more maximum HP but your items come back 20% faster OR to have your items come back 50% faster with no armor increase? [...]
You can have a Punisher with TC golds with a sirius long speed using Thermograde armor and it literally blasts everything to oblivion. [...]

Well, then I have a simple question: Why does nobody play on Puni with TC golds then? Because you will get one-shot. And not even 100% cooldown reduction to uphold permanent RD would save you from that. You also wouldn't fly on a Drac ship with e.g. r70 armor and Sir tech just for the Speed advantage, would you?

Remembering how the items used to work before ( when Speed Actuator would scale with installed Item levels ) [...] it gives a much lower one, as it now scales with armor.

Serious question: When did Speed ever scale with installed tech item level? Because I have a Puni on thermograde for that exact purpose you describe for many years now. Like, higher armor always impacted Speed, AB, etc. as far as I can remember.

But what is worth mentioning: It works differently when you use Speed on other people because it does not rely on the same logic afaik and doesn't consider the target's armor I think. Maybe that's where you get the idea with item level difference from.

 

[Vesperion]

Well, then I have a simple question: Why does nobody play on Puni with TC golds then? Because you will get one-shot. And not even 100% cooldown reduction to uphold permanent RD would save you from that. You also wouldn't fly on a Drac ship with e.g. r70 armor and Sir tech just for the Speed advantage, would you?

Even if you would go totaly crazy and use a Vega ship and give it TC gold speed it would not get any better as i think the devs did implement an absolute value that each item can have in the effect otherwise it would be nice to see a whole vega squad rampaging over erebos and killing everything in 1 hit if weapons would be affected as well but they have fix values no matter what ship and armor you use for them

But what is worth mentioning: It works differently when you use Speed on other people because it does not rely on the same logic afaik and doesn't consider the target's armor I think. Maybe that's where you get the idea with item level difference from.

I can´t say it for sure but it does seem as if the Speed follows the logic of the player using it and not the one whoe is affected by it and so if it is given to someone else the speed acts on your armor lvl instead of the targets armor lvl.

At least this was my feeling when i was building some years ago my Hunter for Siri (he did grow to a TC Hunter already) and gave another player the speed. For me it looked like the player has the same reduction like i had and was of course faster even when he had the better armor installed.

 

[Fra_592]

Even if you would go totaly crazy and use a Vega ship and give it TC gold speed it would not get any better as i think the devs did implement an absolute value

Well, yes, but also speed acts have always been utterly broken on Vega anyway. Before the removal of the vega armors, it was the only system where the long SA was actually longer than the gold one, and since their removal the SA have been broken by the level difference just like it is the case on turbo-non-full-armored ships. Some other items (attack droids, aggrobeacon) used to not be capped for a while when buffed/weakened and to only consider the launching ship's level, which had some fun effects such as a long sirius AD launched by a miz disruptor being able to tank/kill a thunderbird and other shenanigans but i believe they now all are.

 

[SpritHunter]

You have to put in more energy because of the bigger ship/armor to speed up processes is how I would interpret that.

Well, then I have a simple question: Why does nobody play on Puni with TC golds then? Because you will get one-shot. And not even 100% cooldown reduction to uphold permanent RD would save you from that. You also wouldn't fly on a Drac ship with e.g. r70 armor and Sir tech just for the Speed advantage, would you?

People do use Punisher with TC golds on Thermograde armor with Sirius long speed actuator to grind cryo in sirius.
The fact that the armor upgrade nerfs your speed actuator is counter intuitive and shouldn't be a thing.
CC, Hunter, Thunderbird, Slate all suffer from this issue of having to choose between a bit better armor OR massive speed actuator gains.

Please at least increase the power of TC Gold speed on r99 items by a bit ( 5- 10% ) so that it doesn't make Speed actuator ships weaker. The full TC golds thermo armor punisher is not game breaking but is a good example of this point.

 

[Razor2278]

also give a better afterburner for flying because these ships are standing in place chromoan and lava, it's either gorilla, almost nothing flies xd

 

[Vesperion]

I still find it funny considering (again) that this mechanic is in the game since years but no one really cared about it when the same item lvl was combined with same armor. But then the transition from TC3 to TC4 happened and now everyone noticed this major "flaw" that players have played years with.

Yeah i know that it is ironic cus basically installing the armor means you will be in a disatvantagous position due of lower speed with AB and reduced effect of some items (RD and Speed mainly) but i hardly doubt that Split will at this point change anything on the mechanic at all depending on how the code is writen of course.

Don´t get me wrong i also find it not a good thing that installing the best armor puts you in a bad spot as chances to escape are lower due you may not be able to outrun the Mantis anymore and even stun is not really reduced much what is on Erebos a deadsign in many situations. But tbf Split would have had to made it so from the begining that items work best when armor lvl and item level are at par and not the way it is currently that higher item level on lower armor lvl performs better so that it makes more sense to not install the best armor.

Again this mechanic is in place since a long time in the game without anyone complaining so far but since TC4 it seems to be the most glaring thing to complain about cus why not.

 

[alewx]

But tbf Split would have had to made it so from the begining that items work best when armor lvl and item level are at par and not the way it is currently that higher item level on lower armor lvl performs better so that it makes more sense to not install the best armor.

Techniclly that is the case, but lets take another example to point the issue out in better perspective.
Lets say you have your highest sol ship with max armor and then switch to draconis and by luck you find a new AB that has by nature is better than the current stuff. if you do not allow for a kinda boost with the items on lower ships, you do not really get an advantage in new systems.
yes the balance there is not perfect but if you are willing to give up about 15% Hp for difference in about 5% of the AB then no much to help you there, if you even can pull it of kudos to you.

 

[Vesperion]

Well the main ships that profit most from the "lack of HP due of lower armor" are the ones that use a Speed anyways. Ships without an Speed have in the end only the faster AB speed to cover more ground vs a fully armored ship while the other items not really are affected much by the armor vs item lvl situation due of fixed values.

 

[SpritHunter]

yes the balance there is not perfect but if you are willing to give up about 15% Hp for difference in about 5% of the AB then no much to help you there, if you even can pull it of kudos to you.

The HP difference is more like 30% from what I've seen, but if you actually know the exact value and its 15% I believe you. However, even so, the advanced armor nerfs the speed of the AB by around 50%, not 5%, let alone the nerf of Speed Actuator ships. Perhaps something could be done to improve the power of TC gold AB on r99 armors and of the speed? Not by much but something.
Please, play the game to see for yourself.

 

[hektor.barbossa]

All is fine.
Player choice if want big buff but low hp,or big hp but low buff.
That was years...
Big armor ships must be slow as was always.

If for you speed or slow armored ship is issue then change ship XD
Why always someone cry that something is bad,pls buff...
Maybe need nerf speed then to his buff be same always
Like blue ones always add 7.5% + 15/18% gold/ancient and all be happy
No more created dps ship. Make game harder
TC gold not release yesterday... Not see all complain so must be player fould not game

That how ends when ppl rush for tc golds think they give them god mode.

 

[Vesperion]

That how ends when ppl rush for tc golds think they give them god mode.

Nah the main issue is imo that players simply where comforted to much with TC3 when Calon Items were the top items with lvl 95 and ship armor was only lvl 90 so of course some items performed better then they should and with TC4 and the TC armor players have now been draged down to the surface (or carpet as the saying goes) the hard way when with the armor AB and Speed now work "slower" again as it was for years and years in the game.

I mean why is only TC the system that now gets bashed? Why was it not already since any of the other systems or even Mizar onwards that player did come up with this situation? The simple answer is that players not really had this situation that TC confronted us with for years as it was with every new system possible to get the top items and armor when it was released and due most players rushed the story many items were skiped to go directly for the top blue/gold items with the top armor as it was not locked behind some sort of progression gate like in TC.

So you can blame partially us as players and Split for this situation as otherwise this topic would have come up way sooner already.

 

[The_Ghost]

Tau Ceti Chromian is only so good cause only having 70% the hp of adv armor is offset by rare repair droid being 10% stronger and 47% more hp from rare protector. You're not making any tradeoff for stronger sa or ab in the end.

Even in Sirius you can see issues with protector/shield balancing with 82 armor ships getting more hp from Draconis Rare, Oolyte, Dolomyte, and Clay than from Kenyte.

If something must be done fixing protectors giving way to much extra hp with level differences above draconis makes more sense than buffing sa or ab even more. Just dont break vega in the process.

Thermograde punisher has to deal with nerfed long rd to ~78% power which is a fair tradeoff to balance out rd being back sooner.

 

[SpritHunter]

Aso the speed actuator doesn't give its boost based on the installed item's level and the armor level, it only considerd armor level, hence why a tc puni can use siri long speed.

All I am saying is people should not be facing a ilogical choice of spending 1mil extra cryo to nerf their ships with speed actuator. ( cries in Hunter parsec with low armor, so you must use advanced armor, but oh wait now your cooldowns all came back much slower, the AB here is acceptable as the ship is very fast)
You can help this by reducing the penalty armor gives to speed actuator effectivness by a bit and to the AB too, even 10-15% would be amazing.
The prot and rd issues mentioned above are also a thing would be welcomed, for prots to have a set amount of Hp regardless of armor.

 

[KingSub]

Just wait for 6th ring and new ancient stuff and everything will be solved as simply as it sounds