ENGINEERS are in trouble!

[Moron]

Hey all

I’m a bit of an oldi peeking back in, and its kinda fun to see this thread. Now, if you’ll forgive me for a bit of a memory lane walk here, this exact discussion was had just before the split between Splitscreen and Gamigo. (I’d link it, but I cannot find any way back to the old forums.)

And its nice in that regard to see Jonny posting, and posting as always in an excellent manner. (A word on that, notice the extreme difference in tone in their answers in this thread between Jonny and Ardrana.)

Starchaser, though unfortunately playing the I’m and old hand you newbies are all whiners card, makes a good point. When she wants to do something like levelling or such, she uses another ship than the engie. So, the game then has four ship classes, of which you should only play one as a secondary ship. This also lies in the comments of the GM’s in this thread. Engie is a support ship and shall therefore not be flown alone. That means that the engi is only to be flown by players that have sunk all the cry they can into whatever they are flying, and are now in need to something else to use them on. (Yes, I’m exaggerating, but not more than you guys are exaggerating its solo capabilities.)

Doing something about that was at the gist of the suggestions I and others made to Jonny last time – and which he said he’d look into then also. (They cannot have been good, because neither they nor any other seem to have been implemented.) If we are happy about this state of play nothing should be done. If, on the other hand, we think that all should be equally playable – though with different roles and therefore strength and weaknesses – it seems the engi could still use some love in the pve regard to make it more viable as a solo ship, and to make it more needed by other players in their pve endeavours. (I’ll shut up on pvp because conquests have been changed since I went away.) By viable as a solo ship I don’t, by the way, mean make it some uber ship. But to face that you’re not always in a squad.

Anyways, just an oldi with Alzheimer walking down memory lane…

Best,
M

 

[Toorimakun]

always nice when some one in the company posts some thing... even if its not what we want to hear.
tho i have noticed a lot of them posting stuff that seems to have nothing to do with what the topic is... i don't think my english is THAT bad... most every one els seems to get it.
*tho for some reason this thread keeps going back to PVP*

i don't think she makes a good point... if any thing she proves my point.
she HAS to use A DIFFERENT class to level.
this is the point of this post... Engineers are loosing XP in parties.

wow... you last paragraph really doesn't make me feel good about what Jonny said.

- - - - -
off topic: PVP

again i see nothing wrong with the engineers PVP ability... i have blown up just as many ships as have blown me up.
tho dropping cry in CQs really doesn't seem right to me.
and i still thing the amount of E given by the CQ E-CELLS should be more... but not sure if they have done that or not since i haven't been in a CQ since the update.

 

[sir-vivol]

the posts made towards "pvp" are mostly not about "conquest"

mostly when people talk pvp they talk about 1 vs 1..
why you focus on conquests when u are talking about pvp does not compute in my front-lobe.

 

[Toorimakun]

well CQ is PVP
and again the only time i PVP is in CQs.... and not what this thread is about.

 

[sir-vivol]

cq = cvc <clan versus clan>

u could say it's a pve form..

pvp = player vs player <not players vs players>

and that u dont pvp outside cq dont mean it cannot be discussed in topic..
did open this topic about engineerclass in general or YOUR engineer only?

 

[Toorimakun]

pve is player vs environment.... you are way over thinking this.

killing mantis isn't player vs mantis it is considered PVE.
and just like that CQs isn't PVE or CVC... it is PVP.

there is no CVC, GVG or PVM.... just PVE and PVP.
if you go up against the environment, NPCs or puzzles its PVE.
if you fight player(s) its PVP.

 

[sir-vivol]

but when ppl talk about pvp it's not said they talk about cq..

there is also a 1 vs 1 scene in this game.. ppl who just battle other ppl all day 1 vs 1.
ur a rank 33.. come to rank 60+ and at end of sol..
sol scene is big on askone.. and actually lz e-field on earth is like a pvp arena here..
not by SS but by the players..

ur right there are no such abbreviations as CVC.. i just somewhat as a metaphorical example..

 

[Jonny]

The way XP is allocated is via something called an 'effort system'.

It works like this:

Three player ships are shooting a Mantis.
The Mantis does some damage to one of the players.
A fourth player comes along and uses his remote repair to heal the damaged player.
When the Mantis in question is destroyed, the XP is divided by all 4 players as they all contributed 'effort' to dispatch the freaky Mantis.

This should be the case for the engy's repairfield and protect item too.

However, we are going to test this as it is possible that it's broken.

Engys are never going to be the best at grinding for XP as they are simply a support class. However, it is of course unfair if, because of a potential bug, engys are not getting a share of XP from kills that they have spent 'effort' on. Like I said, we will test this very soon.

Lastly, the engy has slightly less hitpoints than the damage class, which means its not uncommon for the engy to be the first killed if the pilot doesn't have the right tactics. I can of course change this, but the engy is not meant to be some kind of tank. When I made the engy, I thought it was fair to make it have less hitpoints but more speed than the other classses. Perhaps I need to look at this balance, but what I won't do is make the engy way better at killing Mantis, as its not for that, its a support class ship.

 

[Jonny]

Hey all

I’m a bit of an oldi peeking back in, and its kinda fun to see this thread. Now, if you’ll forgive me for a bit of a memory lane walk here, this exact discussion was had just before the split between Splitscreen and Gamigo. (I’d link it, but I cannot find any way back to the old forums.)

And its nice in that regard to see Jonny posting, and posting as always in an excellent manner. (A word on that, notice the extreme difference in tone in their answers in this thread between Jonny and Ardrana.)

Starchaser, though unfortunately playing the I’m and old hand you newbies are all whiners card, makes a good point. When she wants to do something like levelling or such, she uses another ship than the engie. So, the game then has four ship classes, of which you should only play one as a secondary ship. This also lies in the comments of the GM’s in this thread. Engie is a support ship and shall therefore not be flown alone. That means that the engi is only to be flown by players that have sunk all the cry they can into whatever they are flying, and are now in need to something else to use them on. (Yes, I’m exaggerating, but not more than you guys are exaggerating its solo capabilities.)

Doing something about that was at the gist of the suggestions I and others made to Jonny last time – and which he said he’d look into then also. (They cannot have been good, because neither they nor any other seem to have been implemented.) If we are happy about this state of play nothing should be done. If, on the other hand, we think that all should be equally playable – though with different roles and therefore strength and weaknesses – it seems the engi could still use some love in the pve regard to make it more viable as a solo ship, and to make it more needed by other players in their pve endeavours. (I’ll shut up on pvp because conquests have been changed since I went away.) By viable as a solo ship I don’t, by the way, mean make it some uber ship. But to face that you’re not always in a squad.

Anyways, just an oldi with Alzheimer walking down memory lane…

Best,
M

Thank you for your post Moron (strange to right that )

I would just like to point one thing out, it is true that we have before discussed the engy, but it is not true to say nothing was done. The most recent changes to the engy (made some months ago) were to its protect and materializer items. The protect was changed to nullify stuns and the materializer was changed so that it materialized twice as fast.

See, I have at least sometimes shown love to the engy class

However, if there was something else in our previous dicussions that I have since forgotten (unfortunately it can happen) then please tell me and I'll be happy to respond.

 

[BucaneerBill]

Engineers are a pain if theirs more than one of them...a buff isn't needed! I would say maybe they repair their health VERY slowly over time but thats it. . Oh and the field repair is at the moment repairing pirate ships when they are non pirate, not sure if this is fixed .

 

[Toorimakun]

@ sir-vivol
what you are referring to is called a dual.

@Jonny
ok that is good to know... i am on the AGE server.
not sure if you guys can test that one... but that is the one that i play an engineer on.

 

[Jonny]

@ sir-vivol
what you are referring to is called a dual.

@Jonny
ok that is good to know... i am on the AGE server.
not sure if you guys can test that one... but that is the one that i play an engineer on.

Don't worry, it doesn't matter which server you are on and in any case we can of course test on every server including aeria's.

 

[sir-vivol]

no it's called pvp

 

[Jonny]

no it's called pvp

PvP is a broad term relating to any player(s) versus player(s) interaction.

There are different types of PvP systems, for example:

Duelling - consensual
Pking - non consensual
Team based - consensual and involving multiple teams (conquest)

PvP is not a term that describes literally 1 player versus another 1 player (in such a situation, and if consensual, this is a duel).

Cheers,

Jonny

 

[ridoi]

Hi I have a engi now and I love it try to come to sol guys it is so fun, but some time when i mat some one so do i get podded lol in earth and i hate it i am fast the only engi that will save some one and no one will save me when I am pod

Like that Toorimakun say we must get any type of reward or like i will say it nothing at the all just that we are engi we protect we do not die if we get podded can we mat our own ship.

 

[Moron]

@Jonny my apologies. I’ve been away a while so I hadn’t experienced the new change in stun, and since I came back the materializer has been broken. (Though the replay to my petition on it still being broken indicate that it has indeed been fixed now, so I just need to find someone podded to test. Never too difficult. )

Those were two of the most important suggestions we made, in addition to it having better effect against perforators. (Argument for that in short was lower hit points and lower and fever damage modules, and it being some logic to an engie being able to work on its shielding to withstand.) Beyond that we spoke not of boosts to the ship, but on boosts to its usage for other pilots. Stuff that would allow it to be a weaker ship as a support vessel (in my opinion) should be, but be compensated through love from other ships. That would entail making it something they really like to see around them so you expend some e helping them out because you know you might need them in a bit. We (as in the player base) struggled to come up with good ideas, issues broached were that a part of cry drop would only be recoverable if matted (but that plays into the at least previously available buy protection against cry drop, so it might be economic arguments against it.) Basically the plea was for devs to think of ways wherein the support ship was really needed by the other players. And it goes beyond missions and different forms of PVP. In that all ships have their uses, but engies is a fair bit weaker in the everyday messing about planetside. It was there we were looking for ways to make it some more loved by other players. That require it to have a stronger support role there. I think that covers the gist of the old thread I think. This just to bring what was thought of by old to the surface, maybe somebody has better ideas. Or maybe stuff should be left as it is.

@everyone else. I have been playing MMOs for a some time. This kind of player – developer discussion does not occur too often. I know this sounds like a kiss up, its not meant to be. But it is, imho, to be appreciated.

M

 

[Toorimakun]

@moron
when you try to rez some one your pirate mode has to match theirs.
so say you try to un-pod some one in PM you your self have to be in PM.
and same with some one out of PM you your self have to also be out of PM to rez them.
this is a large reason why almost every one on my server just stays in PM... we don't have any PKer Trolls.

what is said about player and deva discussion is true... most the time it is when a game first comes out.
i have seen companies change an entire map... but then usually when the cash shop opens and the company starts making money they seem to fully focus on the cash shop and don't care any more about player options.

i am currently working on putting together a list of things to be changed for clans.
such as the active players to be listed on top by default when you open the members tab instead of at the bottom.

 

[sir-vivol]

no it's called pvp

PvP is a broad term relating to any player(s) versus player(s) interaction.

There are different types of PvP systems, for example:

Duelling - consensual
Pking - non consensual
Team based - consensual and involving multiple teams (conquest)

PvP is not a term that describes literally 1 player versus another 1 player (in such a situation, and if consensual, this is a duel).

Cheers,

Jonny

not entirely correct.. i dont feel like explaining in full detail... but

conquest = is just an off offspring form of capture the flag.. and in most games the equalivant of conquest = capture the base..

and so are there many names for all these forms... but duelling n conquest are not original terms for multiplayer games.
it all began with "duelling" before there was a multiplayer that went above 2 ppl..

i have been playing online multiplayer games since the first Soldier of Fortune and have seen the coming of all these fancy names.

besides all that.. i said that the way ppl use the term PvP in PG is mostly not directed to CQ..
if they talk about conquest they say: Conquest
if they talk about everybody against everybody: Free For All..
when it comes down to 1 vs 1 it's: PVP

if somebody ingame asks me to PVP im expecting 1 vs 1.. and most players do..

it doesnt matter how other mmo's use it.. well in fact it are not other mmo's it are other rpg's..
coz online mmo shooters use these terms slightly different or use other terms.

 

[visitorfromspace65]

Just writing from hospic. I am an engi and i like to fly with it. I read the most and i realy don't understand that they all complain about xp. I had help in the beginning and i followed some of my own tactic after bad mistakes. But when i maked it to Sol i raised very very fast. Many above me with ranking i downgraded. And this all with an engi. (And yes i know, i was hunting almost 2 full weeks for the SSB, but that proved to me and i hope you all that an engi can get fast xp).

For the suggestion extra e yes and no. What if somebody fly or hang around with engi and make a switch to an other ship? What will happen with that extra e?

I hope to be back after 2/3 weeks and play again.

Greetings visitorfromspace65

 

[Toorimakun]

@ sir-vivol
i play all kinds of games... RPG, RTS, FPS... and so on.
the only thing i don't really play that often is sports games or guitar hero.
and i read game mags.
i also have been working on starting my own game development company.

and while you are right about what these things can be called they are all under PVP.
as i (and jonny) said:
PVP:
CQs
Duals (that you are calling pvp)
guild wars (or if we had them clan wars)
... any thing where you are going up against palayer(s).

PVE:
puzzles
mobs/rats/NPCs

i think there is a 3rd one but i don't remember.


@ visitorfromspace65
where you seem to be getting confused is we aren't talking about XP from mobs that you shoot.
we are talking about the mobs that are killed while we are in a party (squad) while we are healing some one els.
pretty much every one on my server has rare blasters... we help each other hunt for them.
(kinda of off topic but every one is also always in pirate mode so every one levels pretty quickly too*)
so mobs are killed really quickly... so the time it takes to select the person that needs healed and use the healing tech a mob or two have been killed that you haven't shot.

*on our server we don't have people coming from mizar to vega to gun down level 9s that happen to be in PM.
so every one can afford to be in PM.